Curse

Ristaron · Sep 15, 2005, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I PvP casually. Half the time in competition arenas because I like the variety (I play a monk, so no matter what my team isn't going to have a horrid disadvantage). I tombs once in a while... have probably done only 30 or 40 rounds... and I have 15 fame.
Sadly that's not enough in a lot of peoples' eyes for me to get into a good group... and I really don't feel like taking the ten random blind invites I get the moment I step into the Tombs districts...

Mimi Miyagi · Sep 15, 2005, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostra

Hi guys,

I came to GW because the game description pointed out that it did not require hours of leveling and farming, but was mainly a matter of playing skills.

Now, I think I missed to identify the real problem: sure, I can get an ascended character and gear quickly, but then I don't think that I can do well in pvp if I don't spend a lot of time playing, because a player who would play just a couple hours a week would not be aware of the new trends (air spike, smite, traps, all ranger, mass conditions, IWAY, health degen, etc.), how to counter them, and MOSTLY would not be famed enough to join good groups (or a good guild as well) and will thus end up with PUGs, which means dead meat.

In other words, sure the leveling and farming are much shorter than in other games, but it still requires to put a lot of hours every week to do well in pvp.

Show me I am wrong and I will be happy.

nostra

I fail to see how the lack of leveling and farming equates lack or mastery of the game.

You don't gain skill via farming.

You don't gain skill for PVP via leveling.

You gain PvP skill by playing PvP.

So.....what exactly is your point?

Rieselle · Sep 15, 2005, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Rank and Fame mean a little bit - it shows that the person has at least participated in that many HoH battles. (unless, they Ebayed their account or something). Even if it was in some sort of group that wins without requiring much skill, at least they can pay enough attention to stick to their build, and at least they have experienced that many matches against other teams, good and bad.

So a player with high fame is -more likely- to be a better player than a player with low fame. Exceptions exist (especially since GvG nets you no fame) but taking a low-fame player is clearly a gamble.

So unfortunately, casual players cant be all that good in pvp, no. It's just a matter of priorities - if you want to be good at something, you have to sacrifice time for other things .... It's perfectly ok to suck at GW because you have more important things to do with your time. And it's perfectly ok to be really good because you dont :P

IlikeGW · Sep 15, 2005, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

There will always be people who can spend more time playing. Even if everyone has every skill and best armor, there will be teams that practice 12 hours a day, or whatever. The only thing standing between the casual player and the hardcore would be the sheer boredom from the lack of needing to unlock anything.

Even all things being equal someone would manage to complain about something being unfair...it's a vicious circle. ...and yet at the end of the day you guys are still playing.

Nah, that's BS. Look there would be at least a 100 districts daily at tombs if they game was even moderately popular in PVP. Sometimes it doesn't break more than 5. As it stands it's a flop, and it's a flop because they blew it and choose to make it inacessible. How many training PVP levels are there? How easy is it for a new player to start? How well is it "integrated" into the game (not at all but that's how Anet describes their game) How balanced is guild play vs. pug, etc...

You know what? Arguing about it is for nutcases. Facts are facts, there's barely a real pvp audience for the game. Show me where it says people are playing it with a the dist numbers to colloborate that.

And I've stopped caring anyway. Like I said I play casually some PVE when I feel like it now. They are never going to make the changes to make pvp as good as beta, and it sure as hell doesn't matter because there's plenty of other games to play for that. Just don't lie through the teeth and act like GW is any good in that respect, it's a flop.

Chad · Sep 15, 2005, 02:53 AM // 02:53

My guild is built for casual players, and we have lots of fun. We're not a hardcore guild, just about all of us have jobs, school, families, girlfriends, etc as well as interest in games other than Guild Wars (imagine that).

That being said, when we do Tombs/GvG, we generally do quite well. We've beat just about every top team out there at least once, in some cases multiple times. Our guild has gone on 10+ win streaks in Tombs before. We've held the HoH around a dozen times. Our GvG Rank and record are both pretty good.

So yes, I think casual players can do good in PvP. Unless your definition of good is a sub-100 rank and nightly tombs domination. These days though, even the worst teams can win the HoH. I've seen a PUG full of PvE characters that were thrilled just to be in the HoH (probably most/all of their first time being there) win it against my guild and one of the highest ranked teams on the ladder.

Mormegil · Sep 15, 2005, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

unfortunately you're right, the marketting is a lie. the community called the company on it for months but it was a losing battle basically. they added faction to "acquire" stuff via pvp, but the rates are never going to be inline with making the game based on your personal skill... there will always be a very steep path to be one of the PVP "haves". because the whole thing is so annoying and fraught with PR mind benders from Anet, and psychotic pve fans who will flame any and every thread not about pve, I recommend you forget about it, and let it go.

I dabble in the single player now, when I feel like it, but accept the fact the game was made by liars and the pvp IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE, AS IT HAS BEEN FOR MONTHS, a serious grind, and non level playing field.

Keep dabbling in the single player, then, but dabble some more, so that you won't have the time to spread misinformation here.

Yours is, at best, a totally flawed point of view.

Mr Jazzy · Sep 15, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

does it really take 1000 fame to get rank 6?? how much to get rank 3?? 2000??

goldfinger · Sep 15, 2005, 03:20 AM // 03:20

I played some tombs... I liked it alot, except for the fact that getting in a group takes a fackin year if you are going for pick ups. Plus, half the time you go in a pick up they are mostly hanus. I was in a guild that did the tombs thing for the first week I was in it. Now they have pretty much died off so I am guild free at this point. I mean, the tombs was great fun and winning was a hoot but the preparations that it required were just too much. I mean, hanging around in dis. 1 typing "(insert class/build here) LFG with vent/TS" for hours just pushed me to hit the arenas. If there is one thing I could really dig it would be hitting a guild that is actually into the tombs thing.

AckmedJones · Sep 15, 2005, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Yeah um you see the thing is, it doesn't matter what the build is, if you have good players you will succeed with it. Have you guys seen the build that LuLu threw together and some other dude recorded? A random necro spike. Try joining a group and throwing together 6 necros and 2 monks and see how well you do. If you are a casual player and truely a good gamer you should have no problem winning many consecutive in tombs.

Dax · Sep 15, 2005, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

Nah, that's BS.

You're right I just dug down deep and pulled it out.

Personally I find PvP boring as all get out, hence the reason I don't play it. I don't complain about it either. I think it's pretty funny rarely anyone seems satified but continue to play. So who's fault it that? Not the game.

But the original question of can a person be good by not playing as much as the hardcore players almost answers itself. I think if you enjoy PvP you'll take the time and have fun.

Vusak · Sep 15, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

pvp is really good fun if you get into a good guild.

i dont mean a rank xx guild or a guild full of rank x players. i mean a guild that pvp's often and is willing to try different strategies.

when you have 8 open minded people coming up with solutions for taking and holding tombs - you have a lot of fun because you do well.

yes there are advantages to having competent target callers, mesmers who know when to switch targets, necros that keep a little bit of energy aside for taking corpses, smiters who dont cast through diversion, healers who dont doubleup on seeds/dehexing etc.

however that stuff doesnt take much time to acquire.

and the thing is time isnt directly proportional to skill because there are plenty of players who have lots of pvp experience that still dont 'get it' and cant work with a team, while there are many 'noobs' that fall into the rhythm quite quickly when working with a cohesive team.

success in tombs has way more to do with communication skills, sound planning, willingness to adapt.

this applies to all pvp.

Rieselle · Sep 15, 2005, 04:45 AM // 04:45

The fact that a PUG can spend 30 mins "trying to get that last monk", and then fail to beat the initial ghost team at Tombs shows there's something deeply unfun about how its set up at the moment.

Sure, they honestly and legitimately suck, but we have to ask ourselves, is it good game design to inflict such experiences on a large number of players? Particularly players that might be new?

See my post in sanitarium, "Random Tombs" for my take on gentler alternative for those who want to play large-scale pvp in a jump-in-and-go fashion.

KuTeBaka · Sep 15, 2005, 05:21 AM // 05:21

join TBE!!!! anyway, the only problem with a casual player is that it takes so long to make it into a group, and when you finally got it together you have almost no time at all to play tombs. Joining a good guild can help, but sometimes you have to get lucky and be the last one in on a group so you have almost no waiting time. I would rather have a rank 0 person that listens to the leaders commands than a rank 9 who runs around on his own.

Arturo02 · Sep 15, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidepocket13

how would some of you "pro'" recomend the noobs (like me) to break into PVP? should i go to random arenas? i am a mo/me so i KNOW i will be the first to be attacked, and before you say it, i dont have a guild to pvp, so that isnt an option for me

I am no pro at GW pvp...yet, but I have experience in pvp in other games. The one thing that I believe is important is overall experience in fights, how many you have under your belt. I have a training theory I am doing for pvp in GW.

I took Cunnito and kept him in ascalon arena for about a week, a few hours each night. It was the same week Anet restored xp in arenas so I basically leveled. Once I got out of there I arrived in yaks and proceeded to do the same thing. Think I only did a level or two there. But still, that is a lot of fighting, I estimate I took part in about 200 matches when I was all done.

Now that did not make me a pvp master at all. But what it did was slow the fights down, so to speak. It also makes you very comfy on the field, you know your role by this point, what works and what doesn't. You work on your build so you learn how to counter stuff your opponent does.

It teaches you the basics. And it got a little addictive hehe. I was actually fine after about 100-150 but there was always..'ok one more match'.

I think the next step to take is Drok's because it's still 4x4 and you can pick your team. Myself and some guildmates have been doing this and it has been helping our team play as well as exposure to even more opponent's strategies.

It's a slow process, my training methods, but I'm learning a lot and having a lot of fun in the process

At the least if you can't get in with a decent guild that is active in pvp, find a few friends who like to pvp as well and start your own guild or at least team together. Of course if you get in with an active or a good pvp guild, you can skip a lot of this. You'll get on the job training hehe.

Oh, and whatever you do, ignore trash talk. And give a gg everytime, no matter the outcome.

Navaros · Sep 15, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

Rank and fame are a farmable thing and mean utterly nothing in the real game of tombs and HoH. If you find such a group they are mostlikely idiots who think a small number means something. Most of the teams that win are either well organized or a guild, not just rank 6 people.

this is not true at all.

only the most successful and best players are rank 6 or above. granted, they got there by playing alongside and aggressively seeking out other players like themselves. but the fact that they were able to do that just goes to prove that they are among the best at PVP. it's not an easy thing to achieve. which is precisely why casual players are not suited for Guild Wars PVP. unless one is extremely aggressive in only joining good parties, he is going to lose in Tombs. of course having a good Guild you are in who does Tombs all the time is an exception to this concept, but not everyone has that luxury. casual players most likely won't even be accepted into any good Guild.

the point is, a rank 6 person is guaranteed to be a good player. some people with rank 0 like to try to dispute this fact, simply out of jealousy i suspect

whereas rank 3 or less players will often suck. with rank 3 or less, taking those players into your party is a huge gamble. yet with rank 6, the quality of their work is a sure thing.

PS: rank 6 players are not going to participate in unorganized teams. they know better.

Fantus · Sep 15, 2005, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

I am no pro at GW pvp...yet, but I have experience in pvp in other games. The one thing that I believe is important is overall experience in fights, how many you have under your belt. I have a training theory I am doing for pvp in GW.

I took Cunnito and kept him in ascalon arena for about a week, a few hours each night. It was the same week Anet restored xp in arenas so I basically leveled. Once I got out of there I arrived in yaks and proceeded to do the same thing. Think I only did a level or two there. But still, that is a lot of fighting, I estimate I took part in about 200 matches when I was all done.

Now that did not make me a pvp master at all. But what it did was slow the fights down, so to speak. It also makes you very comfy on the field, you know your role by this point, what works and what doesn't. You work on your build so you learn how to counter stuff your opponent does.

It teaches you the basics. And it got a little addictive hehe. I was actually fine after about 100-150 but there was always..'ok one more match'.

I think the next step to take is Drok's because it's still 4x4 and you can pick your team. Myself and some guildmates have been doing this and it has been helping our team play as well as exposure to even more opponent's strategies.

It's a slow process, my training methods, but I'm learning a lot and having a lot of fun in the process

At the least if you can't get in with a decent guild that is active in pvp, find a few friends who like to pvp as well and start your own guild or at least team together. Of course if you get in with an active or a good pvp guild, you can skip a lot of this. You'll get on the job training hehe.

Oh, and whatever you do, ignore trash talk. And give a gg everytime, no matter the outcome.

I did pretty much the same training method like you did, and yes, it works. When I made my mesmer I basically leveled her in the lowbie arenas. First Ascalon, then Shiverpeaks and so on. She is still an RP toon, but when she hit level 20 I knew some basics about Mesmer PvP that helped a great deal to survive battles. I am still the most casual of PvP players. I do PvP for fun only, not for competition. I can laugh at myself when my team gets badly owned and I'd never ever start to call names as I have seen countless Tombs players do. I am about as casual as it gets. Yet my teams still win considerably more matches then we lose. Casual PvP IS possible. The only thing you can't really expect is competing with the best of the best on a regular basis. They invest way more time and energy into PvP and thus they deserve to be better. It would be highly UNFAIR if practicing a lot wouldn't give you an advantage over someone who doesn't. No question about it.

What would be really nice, though would be to make Casual PvP a bit more worthwile than it's now. I am thinking about leagues. It is highly unfun to encounter pro PvPers when you are a casual (or even new) PvPer, because (surprise) they usually will own you. However I still would like to play tombs and play against other players having roughly the same skill as I have. It really would help getting casual PvPers into PvP without making the learning curve so frustrating as it currently is for most people.

Cjlr · Sep 15, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

And give a gg everytime, no matter the outcome.

Amen!

Hanuman li Tosh · Sep 15, 2005, 10:44 PM // 22:44

before, when you HAD to PvE, casual players had little chance. now with the PvPX the casual player can farm enough faction to unlock whatever in comp. arenas. getting into a good group for tombs to get fame will be a bitch at first, but ive won the hall with pugs before (before i was rank 3) so its not impossible.

so do you mean can they win the hall and hold it on a regular basis? no, that would be like your high school hockey team playing in the olympics. but they can play in tombs and get fame, play enough GvG to get on the ladder etc etc.

but no, theres no way to beat people that play 16 hours a day if you play 1.

Dark Kanaye · Sep 15, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

this is not true at all.

only the most successful and best players are rank 6 or above. granted, they got there by playing alongside and aggressively seeking out other players like themselves. but the fact that they were able to do that just goes to prove that they are among the best at PVP. it's not an easy thing to achieve. which is precisely why casual players are not suited for Guild Wars PVP. unless one is extremely aggressive in only joining good parties, he is going to lose in Tombs. of course having a good Guild you are in who does Tombs all the time is an exception to this concept, but not everyone has that luxury. casual players most likely won't even be accepted into any good Guild.

the point is, a rank 6 person is guaranteed to be a good player. some people with rank 0 like to try to dispute this fact, simply out of jealousy i suspect

whereas rank 3 or less players will often suck. with rank 3 or less, taking those players into your party is a huge gamble. yet with rank 6, the quality of their work is a sure thing.

PS: rank 6 players are not going to participate in unorganized teams. they know better.

Only the best are rank 6 and above? Sorry if I seem a little too blunt, but that is total BS. I've seen rank 7's and 8's that knew nothing of PvP, for example, I've seen a rank 8 warrior that must've believed his rank made him invincible to other ppl cause he ran ahead straight into the opposing team and then yelled at the monk for not keeping him alive while an entire team focused on him, and it might just be me, but I see something wrong with that. Several ppl with high ranks have just been lucky enough to get into groups capable of compensating for their lack of skill. But I have seen ppl below rank 6, hell, some with no rank at all, who absolutely dominated in PvP. High rank =/= skill. It always, always, ALWAYS depends on the person, not the numbers. Also, for anyone that believes time played matters, its not the quantity of practice, its the quality. 2 hours of good practice > 20 hours of bad practice.
And just so I dont get flamed, I realize that yes, there are people with a high rank that are good, I'm just clarifying that not all high ranked ppl are good. It's almost like saying a lvl 3 that got ran to Droknar's is good cause he has forge armor. You just can never tell if someone is good or not until you've played with them yourself. Also, to stay on topic, yes, casual players can be good at PvP, some ppl just have natural talent for it, which is very hard to beat w/o a TON of experience. (not character xp, the player's experience) Thats all I have to say for now....wow, and I complain about 1 paragraph essays in english. Too bad they aren't about games, eh? lol

knives · Sep 16, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Move up in this order:

Random Arenas
---------------
Play around with premades, or copy a build off of a forum to mess around with.

Team Arenas
--------------
Look for PuGs that you think are competent, and will coordinate with your build.

Tombs
-------------
Pug groups work in teh beginning. Get a group, make sure they have ts/vent, and make sure they have a plan/build. Then go to it. 1 fame per fight if your team meets these requirements can be accomplished, even more if you don't come accros a good group. Just getting the feel of tombs maps and strategies is a good thing. Then once you are more experienced, you know which groups you want ot join, and which you don't ever want to take part of, because you know you will be wasting time.

GvG
-------
No comment, as I haven't had the proper time to GvG with my guild.